Erm (pause) so (pause) since you left school at sixteen what was the first job (pause) (interruption) that you did

(interruption) The only job I've had Boiler maker Welder

Is that the first job you did what happened when you left school did you do (pause) (interruption) apprenticeship?

(interruption) Dole (pause) no apprenticeship four year apprenticeship I was on the dole for a couple of months till it -- till we started we did a year at college then we did twelve week block release then we did day release for two year and that was (pause) basically that took till you were twenty and that's when you came out of your time

Exactly the same as me -- as (NAME) sorry I done er served my time

As what sorry

As a welder

Both welders?

(interruption) Both welders yes

(interruption) Aye both welders

Er started left school sixteen interview straight in apprenticeship time-served -- served my time as a welder exactly the same path (NAME) took in sense of college full -- first year full year second year block release which consisted of I think about three months then you went back to th- the shipyard then (pause) that brought you up to roughly about eighteen and then it was day release for two year (pause) at Wearside College which no longer exists pulled down full of houses now

Sadly

Erm (pause) then finished my time (pause) after twenty then (pause) became a fully qualified indentured welder

And that was that (pause) until nineteen eighty nine

Nineteen eighty eight

Was it eighty eight? (pause) Eighty eight you        I've lost a year (pause) Eighty eight until it shut

Did the shipyards shut?

Yes (interruption) the shipyard closed down

(interruption) So is that how use two know each other?

Erm

Aye

Yes

So you both worked at the shipyards together?

Yes

Aye

And I also married his sister

Ah right (laughter)

So it shut eighty eight

The shipyards shut (interruption) in eighty eight?

(interruption) yes

The Shipyards shut in eighty eight aye lock stock and barrel

So what did that mean to the community or (pause) to men in your -- a similar position

Well it meant you either had to -- you had to -- you were either lucky and got a job in the area or like us two (pause) you took your chances away from home (pause) We stayed in the area when it first happened but we only got short term contracts down Middlesbrough for three months (pause) was it three months?

Aye about three months

Three months

A bit job here and there but nothing permanent (pause) (interruption) nothing -- nothing long term

(interruption) aye nothing permanent

Then a couple of courses (pause) And he went er and went er -- I just took my chances (pause) contracting and I think er I ended up in Derby building trains

Mm I basically done the same but I went (pause) contracting again I

Aye you took a radiography course though didn't you?

I went contracting first though didn't I?

Aye I did

Then I (pause) was offered the chance to do some welding inspection and NDT that's Non Destructive Testing for those who don't know er (pause) went inspecting which still consisted of working away from home (pause) er doing that for five or six years. Didn't like it. Didn't like being away from home er didn't see my kids so (pause) I reverted back and lucky enough got a job local back welding even though I wasted so many years (interruption) inspect

(interruption) Where was that then?

Got a job back at Grove's man

Oh aye Grove's I was -- I had a week didn't I? I had to pack in

Aye

In the mean time I did -- when did I come home? I got five year no I got two and a half year down Derby then two and a half year at York

Uh-huh

Then they -- that shut down so I had to come home so I came home and got a job at Liebherr that didn't last long 'cause I didn't like that one bit I ended up at Grove's for two year

Working with me

So our paths crossed again

Then did it cross anymore in the future (interruption) or

(interruption) MTK

Yes erm when Grove's was shut when that was that (interruption) was (unclear)

(interruption) Closed down again another one shut we ended up at MTK

Making (interruption) containers

(interruption) He was there before me I got there for the last two year he was there for about four weren't you?

Aye Then er (pause) I went back into inspection when I was at that job er doing radiography and all the other NDT then (pause) (NAME) come to work with us again and (pause) have a guess what happened (pause) it shut down

(laughter)

Shut down

I can see a pattern emerging here

Aye a vital aye

Yes so -- so we were on the scrapheap again

Oh in the meantime I had nine months in Holland before that job but I didn't like that -- that was -- I liked it but it was away from home aren't you (interruption) so no good

(interruption) aye

Then what happened -- what happened after Grove's shut

No then we went to MTK didn't we

MTK what happened after MTK shut we er (pause) you went to er

I went to work for a -- for a erm (pause) (interruption) high -- highways company which made crash barriers that -- that lasted a couple of years that like

(interruption) Balmer-Lindley weren't it aye

And I ended up in a gray area working for a bloke which was a bit shady but anyway it paid the bills

(laughter)

Then I ended up at the place I've been at for the last nine year -- nine and a half year

Then (pause) erm after the -- the Balmer Lindley which made the crash barriers our paths crossed again (interruption) and I (pause) and I started to work where (NAME) was and I have been there ever since

(interruption) Aye he got a phone call

Aye how (interruption) many year is it now five wont it

(interruption) Which is

Oh no well I have an extra day (interruption) haven't I

(interruption) An extra day so it must be more than five aye

Six

Six year

Six years we'll -- you'll have been there longer

Aye nine and a half year I've been there

Aye so

Do you like the job yous do now? The place you work? (interruption) I know it's the same job but

(interruption) Well

Eh?

I know it's the same job,. yous are still welding but do you like (interruption) the place you work?

(interruption) no it's different this is a different kind of thing this (pause) You're not just welding all the time (pause) well you can walk about most of the day

No you

No you're more or less your own boss aren't you really when you weigh it up

And you're also expected mm because when we first served -- you must understand that first (interruption) time

(interruption) Time working practises have changed haven't they?

Aye you've got to know the Working practises have changed er when me and (NAME) served out times we would only weld that was it

Demarcation

Demarcation you know what I mean (pause) So this company we are expected to manufacturer in other words do something -- do another trade's job so basically what we are doing is w- we actually make it fabricate it (interruption) weld it and pass it on to next

(interruption) and weld it

Plus we do a lot of work that people used to do for us labourers used to do for us cra- er moving stuff with cranes and that bringing -- bringing stuff to you that's already made (pause) all them jobs have disappeared now (pause) But at the end of the day like round this area I don't think we would find a better paid job at home do you?

Well difficult (interruption) I can't see it

(interruption) It is like

So when yous first started how much (pause) can you remember how much you earned?

When I started

When yous (interruption) like both started

(interruption) (unclear) fifteen pound a week

Fifteen pound a week

mine -- mine was a heady eighteen pound and fifty pence

mine was only fifteen

So (pause) with the shipyards closing down and everything what would you say life was like in the eighties?

For us?

Was there like social unrest? (interruption) what was -- What was it like?

(interruption) Well not really

Well

Everybody just left th- there was nobody ever out of work all the lads left -- all the lads got work didn't they 'cause there was a lot of them that went to the car plant and we didn't fancy that like

Well you've got to remember in the early eighties well Nissan was given permission to actually manufacture a pl- mm build a plant in Sunderland (pause) well on the outskirts of Sunderland (pause) and me being cynical (pause) it was all -- it was all a done and dusted deal shut the shipyards you've got a work force there doing nowt they'll all migrate in to the -- in to the car manufacturing sector but us being old union (pause) union (pause) lovers I don't know if lovers is the right word? but union members

We were brought up that way weren't we?

And we were brought up this way mm (pause) it's rather stuck in our throats that we'd been sacrificed for a Japanese car plant (pause) so we tended to shy away from anything to do with Nissan or any car manufacturer

Aye (pause) there was other firms that opened up (pause) what do they call them through cater er Birtley not Caterpillar what do they call them?

What Artics?

Ar- no man (pause) they build the cranes

Through where

The diggers man the big diggers

Caterpillar

Caterpillar

No man through erm

Birtley

Aye

Ah it was Kamatsu

Kamatsu them they opened up at the time and they tried to implement Japanese techniques of working and there was a lot of lads that started but a lot of lads didn't last two minutes (pause) but I can't remember there being any social unrest

Social unrest of the eighties with us was probablies (pause) we'd had a few strikes with management that was about it we lost we nev- never won a battle yet did we?

No but I think (interruption) the longest

(interruption) Is that the shipwrights

Shipyards

Shipyards

Shipyards

The longest we were out in the shipyards was twelve -- was it six weeks or twelve weeks

Six weeks weren't it

Six (interruption) weeks

(interruption) No no twelve, twelve you were right

Twelve weeks was longest we were out on strike twelve weeks

But yous weren't the only worker out on strike at that time were yous

Aye we -- at that time aye

At that time

In the eighties

(interruption) Aye aye

(interruption) Or nor not in the eighties there was loads out on strike

Th- The er that was the -- that was the we had a dispute with the Sunderland shipyard managers but (pause) in the eighties period there was -- there was un- unrest by erm the the -- mines at the time the pits at the time (pause) they went on strike (pause) erm so

They went on strike a couple of times didn't they?

Well they did went on a couple of times but there -- but there was a big one wasn't it

Oh aye the big one for a year

For a year when (pause) when Margaret Thatcher (interruption) was

(interruption) And there was aye, when Margaret Thatcher's jack boot came down (pause) And er that lasted a year and that's when the unrest was especially up here in the little pit villages and that

So what happened when the miners went on strike what was life like? Did it effect you? Did it not affect you? (interruption) Could you not really tell

(interruption) Oh it affected us (pause) Well it affected us Well It affected me 'cause it meant with me being at work luckily I was at work just to help the family out and we got through it

Is this 'cause your dad was a miner?

'Cause my dad was a miner we got through it but er like I say he had a year's bills and that to pay when he went back to work and he wasn't back at work long before he hoyed the towel in (pause) he didn't want to knaa virtually gave up and there was a lot of blokes like that just (pause) more or less seen there was a lot of them seen -- knew what was coming because it had been forecasted hadn't it?

Uh-huh (pause) It was a total (pause) well they didn't want anything to do with the old industries did they?

No for some (interruption) reason

(interruption) The Conserv- the Conservative government at the time did not want (pause) any -- for some strange reason anything that had a strong union bias they didn't want to know i.e. and it just happened to be the shipyards

And the mines

And the mines were al -- (interruption) and you could gan down -- gan down to Middlesbrough couldn't you or you could gan up to Consett you're talking about the steel (interruption) st-

(interruption) were the biggest targets (interruption) steel works

Shut (pause) Shut the lot

Shut the lot but in the same breath (unclear) likes Germany and (pause) places like that they had strong unions and their mining and shipbuilding and all that is still going on today I couldn't see what the problem was myself like

Well I've just told you the Conservative government wanted nowt to (interruption) do

(interruption) Aye true

(unclear) we still haven't found out to this day w- why it happened I think the (pause) the secret papers and that will be out soon won't they?

Well they should be (interruption) should be

(interruption) Should be out and we'll find out the real reason why we were (pause) why we were

Made redundant

Aye

Well th- they've practically pulled the heart out of the North East (pause) (interruption) well especially Sunderland

(interruption) Well they still have

The little pit villages and that have never ever recovered and they'll never will (pause) there's nowt there

You've just got you've just got to look at Easington haven't you?

Seaham all them

Seaham

Well Easington I think probablies got the worst record (interruption) out of them

(interruption) Probably Easington what's the other ones?

Well Dawdon all them

Dawdon

All them with er the community centred around (interruption) the colliery

(interruption) Aye

Well it just had a knock on effect on everything engineering (pause) heavy engineering and that 'cause all the machinery and that was made and all them shops went (pause) and er like you say you can still see the legacy of it today (pause) a shortage of jobs

Shortage of apprentices

No apprentices came through it's like it is now

Y'knaa what makes me laugh though this new er this (pause) this recession we have been in (pause) and the bank was running riot and now this new government is saying we should be investing in people er in manufacturing we can't rely on banking (interruption) but that was the same government that ruined the industrial heart of the North East

(interruption) But twenty year too late

Did ruin the base and you'll never get it back

And you've got

Unfortunately

And when they are talking about manufacturing again (interruption) you can't put all your eggs in one basket in Nissan

(interruption) Got nowhere to start really

Aye Nissan (pause) but unfortunately the likes of the shipyards and that you've lost -- that will never ever come back because you've lost the you've lost the er

The facilities to build them

You've lost the facilities and you've lost all the er the structure that was in place from people to train apprentices all the way and bring them on (pause) you've just lost all that

I think we (interruption) I think we

(interruption) I think there's only one place (pause) in Sunderland where you can build ships now and that's still at Pallion and that's it

And that's only there 'cause they couldn't flatten it 'cause it's a Indust- it's a dock

'Cause it's a dry dock isn't it

It's a dry dock

And (pause) (interruption) I think

(interruption) (unclear) Like you say all the infrastructures gone you'll never be able to bring them team skills back

No and I think you are looking at the likes of me and (NAME) are probablies (interruption) the last (pause) the last

(interruption) Well your year

Well your year especially 'cause you're five year younger than me aren't you

Aye probablies me my -- my (interruption) era

(interruption) His age is about the last there's a few young lads working with us now but that isn't

That isn't proper

Oh aye it is they are apprentices like (interruption) but there only learning

(interruption) but they've never they -- they wouldn't have a clue about going on a ship or how to manufacture a ship (interruption) or where to -- or what to call a ship (pause) what parts of a ship

(interruption) Where to start

Aye all that

And that -- and that's a tradition we've always had in Sunderland of building ships you've got to remember we were the biggest ship building town in the world

Aye six hundred year

Six hundred year and

Just gone like that and you'll never bring it back

And you'll never bring it back

So I know a lot is said about the erm shipbuilding in Newcastle but that's kind of Newcastle's kind of regener- re- like re- (pause) renovated itself as like an urban kind of city is that not the same as what's happening (interruption) or will Sunderland (interruption) never have that like status

(interruption) No

(interruption) Well maybe -- maybes yes but not on the scale (pause) erm (pause) Newcastle itself has always been (unclear)

It's a bit more diverse then Sunderland 'cause you've always had a -- the university's been there (pause) Ours was just a        tech

It was a polytech

Ours was just a polytechnic we didn't have that and now they are trying to reinvent themselves with the university and that they are just trying to catch up

And we'll always be playing catch up

Aye

Because erm th- this comes from London this and has got nothing to do with the Conservative government by the way just in case anybody thinks am on a tirade against the Tories mm-mm this stems back from London if -- if you ask any medium -- media person and ask them about the North East they'll just say Newcastle

Newcastle

They forget that you've got one of the finest well the only one I knaa of er (pause) Cathedral one of the best in the world I think it's -- it's mentioned somewhere that it's -- it's a topper no body mentions about that no body mentions about erm (pause) Durham the only people who know anything about Durham are probably the ex (interruption) students who's went there and a lot of them tend to settle up there where -- if they can get jobs er but everything is centred around Newcastle

(interruption) Students

Rail links everything

Uh-huh (pause) everything goes to (interruption) Newcastle

(interruption) We must be the only major cities in the country that hasn't got a direct (pause) link with London

So do you think, because I know that Sunderland is the biggest city in the North East do you think it is often forgot about?

wey-aye what overlooked (interruption) wey-aye

(interruption) Do you think Newcastle has a lot more (pause) not money but a lot more funding than Sunderland?

(interruption) Probablies

(interruption) Oh definitely you've only got to look at the Metro stations haven't you compare their Metro stations with ours

Ere but (pause) here's another fact that ye -- ye listeners might understand or might -- don't get this we (pause) Sunderland (pause) paid more to build -- in taxes (pause) to build the Tyne and Wear Metro and yet we've got the worst service of them all (pause) ours only goes to one part it only (interruption) goes south side we've got nothing north side

(interruption) One side of the river

It should've been a loop a loop around the north and the south connecting up

No It's all right it's -- it's all right it's only Sunderland man. (interruption) They'll not mind

(interruption) The south side aye but this side of the river -- this side especially this side our side

It would be common sense wouldn't it

Our side aye it would be common sense but this side of the river for some reason it's (pause) supposed to be deprived areas up here

Well uh-huh I can believe it the north side

Aye I don't really see why

So in light of everything that we have talked about (pause) about Sunderland being like in the shadow of Newcastle (pause) erm do you think it's harder for young people who come from Sunderland to stay here? Have they got to move away for jobs? Is it hard to find jobs in Sunderland? or (pause) (interruption) like

(interruption) Well it's always been hard why do you think we had to work away

Uh-huh I agree with you

We were supposed (interruption) to be

(interruption) Mm today speaking I've got a son who is nineteen erm he's finding it difficult getting a job

It's like you've just said all the eggs are in one basket with Nissan (interruption) and if you don't get in

(interruption) erm basically if you want to work in a manual job with decent pay the only option in Sunderland is (pause) Nissan or maybes the er old er Gentoo which is basically council

Aye council but they cutting back (interruption) aren't they so that's it

(interruption) But they cutting back (unclear) so (pause) but like I say

Unless your edu- edu- you get a good education and get lucky and you get out (pause) or you get in to the National Health Service

Or you get in to working for (pause) the tax office or any public sector

Public sector

Even though they are cutting back

A lot of that will just be natural wastage wont it you weigh it up he says we are cutting back all these jobs but he's talking like a five year plan

Aye I agree with (interruption) you

(interruption) Where in five years you're going to lose a lot of them jobs just by people retiring

No no but it was just symbolic why he said (interruption) it

(interruption) Ah I knaa that

(interruption) Seven percent seven percent a year well you're going to lose well anybody know you're going to lose that over a year in turnover

(interruption) Well y'knaa what I mean

I knaa but it nor but it was more -- more political in the sense of

Oh aye It made him look (interruption) good

(interruption) Good aye because he's skint isn't he George Osbourne

Coming down hard on the mm

(unclear)

Just coming down hard on ordinary he's supposed to be coming down hard on the public sector because it's bloated and they get much more favourable working conditions then the private industry which is correct isn't it

Mm probablies aye

And there is a lot more abuse of these conditions

Ah definitely but saying that though (pause) if you were really cynical about it you could just say well if (pause) if the Labour -- the current well the previous Labour government increased the public sector (pause) on -- on the thoughts that they would vote for them

Aye true

They've made sure (pause) that the er the public sector will be reduced (pause) thus not giving them the potential power to -- to get back in again so it's the way you look at it y'knaa what I mean (interruption) you could look at it that way or you could look at it several other ways (pause) but with me being a socialist erm I can't stand anything that they stand for so

(interruption) Could be (pause) Well Thatcher did when she changed the voting boundaries didn't she?

Well exactly the same but then we are going back to it again

It didn't work (interruption) in the end

(interruption) it didn't work no but (pause) one of the reason the manufacturing industry throughout the country is on the bottom was because of what happened in the eighties and now when the bankers and the rest of them were in this recession and what does -- what does -- what does the Conservative government come out and say well we should invest in manufacturing well if she'd left it alone -- if she'd left the        alone in the erm in first place we wouldn't be in this situation

Aye you're right I agree with you

It was a big witch hunt she was anti union and she didn't (pause) but as long as I have breathe in my lungs here I can't see a Conservative MP in Sunderland

I can't either

We have had them and that was in the seventies Gordon Bagier

Aye but we'll not mind saying that there's another difference (interruption) between Sunderland and Newcastle they've always used to have a Tory MP and the only reason that they lost that Tory -- he got voted out was when Swan Hunter's shut weren't it?

(interruption) Do you not think?

Aye exactly

George Elliot

But but (interruption) that was what we talking about the destroying (pause) the ship building industry Swan Hunters gone they've all gone I think there's -- there's one company

(interruption) he was Newcastle Central

Aye but when he was in as a Tory though he made sure that they were well looked after didn't he Swan's (interruption) 'cause they went on a lot longer than us

(interruption) Ah definitely

Ah they did aye

They went on -- they went on a lot longer than us them

But that was on the proviso that -- 'cause they built

Navy vessels (interruption) that's what I am saying

(interruption) MOD but y'knaa what I mean but it just stinks of hypocrisy they -- they saying now that manufacturing can pull us out of this recession

It's not there

It's not there you can't manufacture anything if -- if you've got nothing to manufacture

Even if you've got it to manufacture you haven't got the skills to manufacture it have you?

Well

Well you've got some

Some left

By the time it comes through

By the time it filters (interruption) through

(interruption) You'll be talking a long time

We'll probablies be       

You'll be talking a long time before it gets well it'll not get back to what is was

It will never no

They are talking about building a train -- train makers at Middlesbrough aren't they

No it was Newton Aycliffe

Newton -Aycliffe well it's near Middlesbrough isn't it

Well I suppose so I aye

Well what's the point in that they've shut York down all the facilities were there they shut that down and build one up the road

Ah well you see Hitachi wanted a brand new one didn't they (pause) they wanted a new state of the art (interruption) (unclear) you know what I mean

(interruption) State of the art

True they might have a point there like

But (unclear)

I don't think -- It might come here like but there's another thing, who's going to -- who they going to get to run you don't just pick people out of thin air and say oh you can come in and build us trains

I don't know we might be being a bit naive like but but no Like I say our manufacturing base has gone (pause) gone

Ah it has it's gone

So (pause) are yous married? I know that's a bit of a change of topic but

Am I married (pause) twenty five year to my second wife

You?

Er aye er yes married two children er (pause) now I might get wrong for this but I would say twenty -- twenty one year I think

Erm (pause) to get back on to the topic of working what do they do? What do your wives do?

mine works for the council (laughter)

What about yours?

I think -- I think she's works for I'll not tell you the company but she works for a -- for a discount supermarket

Does she and Do yous have kids?

Three girls two to my second wife

And you?

Aye a lad and a lass

And do they have jobs

One works for the National Health Service she just been -- she's just started well she's been there since the beginning of the year and my daughter is studying at Newcastle University and she's working part-time for Greggs

Er my daughter twenty six or something twenty seven maybes er (pause) er degree educated complete waste of time (interruption) working in a call centre er son nineteen er (pause) good grades at school on the dole

(interruption) (laughter)

So you've got like a little bit of (pause) imbalance?

What do you mean imbalance?

Like your children are working (interruption) but apparently yours are on the dole well one of yours is still on the dole

(interruption) But that doesn't mean to say there's any less cost (pause) that doesn't say -- mean there's any less cost does it (pause) really

But do you not think the jobs that like your wives and children do highlights more the fact that there's not many people left to take over your jobs when you're finished?

There isn't any

No not be many left

There'll not be many left 'cause (pause) if you not -- if you don't get in to it when you're young am afraid there's er (pause) like I say you've got to have the right people there to keep -- to learn you and keep you at it 'cause a lot of young ones don't want to knaa about work

Exactly physical (interruption) work

(interruption) getting dirty and physical oh aye phy- there's that like

Everybody wants to be a celebrity everybody wants to be famous everybody wants loads of money for doing nowt

Oh aye

Well it doesn't happen not in the real world

No it doesn't

The kids we've got now are in the X-Factor generation they want everything

For nowt

For nowt and it doesn't work like that